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Greensleev
Re :   Find A Grave Additions

Ise just a lil forensic detective today LOL  I found a disease called spinal muscular atrophy (& of course I clicked on the NHS link Mr Google sent me).  Tis a congenital gene mutation & sometimes can start ere the baby is even born.  I wonder if in those days they put such a thing down as "failure to thrive" & gave up?  Acuz there's not a thing to be done for it, looks like.  For Elizabeth to have died by age 3 she must've had type I or II of it.  It sez both parents must have the defective gene to pass it along & since the common ancestor between Elizabeth of York & Henry VII is....ummm....help me out here, peeps, they's all interrelated somehow....would it be as far back as Edward III?  John of Gaunt?  FA said Cicely Neville's mother was a Beaufort so mayhap him.

So it's sort of like that Tay-Sachs disease that affects infants of Jewish ancestry, methinks, you're fine if just one of you carries the gene but if you marry someone who's also a carrier, watch out.  Now I'm wondering about Edmund & Catherine.  Would that sort of thing be a genetic crapshoot where you could have healthy children & then have a few with the mutation?  Hmmm.  It's really the only thing I can find on Google regarding causes of a child with atrophy, save for something caused by a giardia infestation that causes severe diarrhea in infants, & Elizabeth was past 3.  There was another but it made them go blind & wasn't life-threatening.  There was also something about a selenium deficiency that retarded growth, but that's it for diseases that atrophy small children.

Ise clever today, huh?

Hey, didn't Queen Anne's only surviving son have to be carried around & died when he was like 10?  Lord knows how many common ancestors the Stuarts had.  Can you think of any other sickly royal offspring like that?

Tho if it does turn out to be disease with a big red glaring neon sign for DON'T BREED EVER, the only other thing I can think of that makes you waste away is cancer, so that'd be the 2nd choice, methinks.  Maybe poor little Elizabeth had a tumor somewhere inside.  Unless it was obvious, who'd notice?

OK wait, I thunk of more....polio?  Juvenile diabetes?  Is 3 too young to get Lou Gehrig's disease?

Methinks I ain't as clever a forensic detective as I thunk LOL


11/21/2009 4:52 PM


Greensleev
Re :   Royal Post Mortems

Got it.  He grew up to be all pudding'd out LOL & prolly had too much fat crushing his lungs, acuz tis said he did nuffin but drink & eat & wench (sound like any Tudor we know?).

Yknow, pity all those princesses weren't princes....can you imagine trying to get rid of half a dozen PITT?  The mind boggles.

I must behaving a very dull & forgetful Saturday here....I looked up that quartan fever thingy & tis also like tertian fever, which is malaria.  Wonder why it's got 2 different names?  Also wondering how Eleanor of Castile wandered into a marsh in northern England.


11/21/2009 4:28 PM


Greensleev
Re :   Queen Matilda

I thunk they were 14 yrs apart, she was married to the Emperor at like the age of 8 & I thunk they were married like 20 yrs.  Mayhap I'm confusing her with Eleanor, wasn't she sposed to be 29 when she married Henry?  I know she was 15 when she married Louis & they were married 14 yrs....prolly where the 14 is coming from LOL  I knew Matilda didn't get along well with lil Geoffrey le Bel there.  She never wished to be styled queen anyway, but "Lady of the English" or some such nonsense.

Methinks Eleanor was seriously in her 80s when she died, as she lived a few yrs into John's reign, & Richard was pushing 40 when he died & he was in the middle of the offspring, but the problem is no one thunk to write down when she was actually born.  She was well past 40 when John was born & he was the youngest of the Devil's Brood.  Methinks he was also the only one she didn't bury, come to think of it.  Apparently the kids dipped too much into Henry's gene pool LOL

I read some place that life expectancy rates are seriously wrong anyhow.  That's because they're affected by infant mortality rates when you calculate the average.  So in a time of high infant mortality (the fact that all of Eleanor's children save William lived to maturity was astonishing in those days), the life expectancy would be lower.  Make sense?  Eleanor rattled the charts on both ends.  Also read that the US has the worst infant mortality rate in the not-Third World, also mind-blowing, so we'll all live to be 100 acuz tis skewed!

Do you think Matilda & Eleanor got along at all, considering how strong-willed they both were?  Henry was a real mamma's boy, so I bet Eleanor came off badly in any arguments she had with Matilda.

Forgot to add, notice how her epitaph just wiped out Henry's father like he never existed!


11/21/2009 4:20 PM


Greensleev
Topic :   Galileo's Bits N Pieces

Is it just me, or did this guy have the most freakishly long fingers in the world?  See em HERE at the Daily Mail.

Body parts cut from Galileo's corpse found after vanishing a century ago

By Mail Foreign Service
Last updated at 3:54 PM on 21st November 2009

An art collector has found a tooth, thumb and finger of the famous renaissance astronomer Galileo that had been missing for more than a century.

The body parts, cut from his corpse when the Vatican finally allowed the controversial Italian scientist a church burial 95 years after his death in 1642, vanished in 1905.

But they appeared at a recent auction as unidentified artefacts contained in a 17th century wooden case. The unnamed collector who bought the relics suspected they might belong to Galileo.

Experts at Florence’s History of Science museum compared them with another finger and vertebrae also cut from the scientist and confirmed they were indeed Galileo's.

‘All the organic material extracted from the corpse has therefore now been identified and is conserved in responsible hands,’ a spokesman for the museum said.

‘On the basis of considerable historical documentation, there are no doubts about the authenticity of the items.’

The relics will be exhibited from early 2010, when the museum will re-open after current renovation work and will change its name to the Galileo museum.

Galileo, born Galilei Galileo at Pisa in Pisa in 1564, is considered one of the fathers of modern science.
His achievements include developing the telescope and observing that the Earth revolved around the Sun.

British physicist once said: ‘Galileo, perhaps more than any other single person, was responsible for the birth of modern science.’

But he became an enemy of the Catholic Church, of which he was a member, by challenging its teachings.

Clerics eventually denounced him to the Roman Inquisition in 1615 over his support of a heliocentric, or Sun-centered, view of the universe.

Although he was cleared of any offence at that time, the Church condemned his belief as ‘false and contrary to Scripture’ and Galileo promised to stop publicising it.

But in 1632, when he defended his views in his most famous work, Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems, he was again tried by the Inquisition.

It found he was ‘vehemently suspect of heresy’ and Galileo was forced to recant and spend the rest of his life under house arrest.

However, following his death, evidence for a heliocentric universe became so overwhelming that the Vatican’s opposition gradually buckled.

In 1737 they finally allowed his body to be buried in consecrated ground and he now lies in Florence’s Santa Croce church, opposite the tomb of Michelangelo.

By now because he was so revered, it was decided that parts of his body should be removed and preserved for posterity.

Giovanni Targioni Tozzetti, a science historian who cut away the parts and wrote about the ceremony, ‘confessed he had found it hard to resist the temptation to take away the skull which had housed such extraordinary genius’, the museum said.

The newly-found relics had passed from one collector to another until they went missing in 1905.

The remaining finger and the vertebrae have been conserved since 1737 in a mummified state in museums in Florence and Padua.

I just feel like breaking out into a chorus of Bohemian Rhapsody now LOL  And why does the Mail always have 1-sentence paragraphs?  Drive me nuts.



11/21/2009 4:04 PM


terrilee
Re :   Queen Matilda

Well now you've got me wondering, 'cause I've got a soft spot for old Matilda - I think she could have held her own against her xxx-times great granddaughter, Elizabeth Tudor for stubbornness and would have probably made a better queen in a later era.  Off to Wikipedia....

Ok, I'm back.  She lived to age 65, which was probably quite ancient then (although I think her daughter-in-law Eleanor of Aquitaine lived even longer!) She married Geoffrey when she was 26 and he 15 and it was 5 years until lil' Henry was born (way to go Greens - Matilda was over 30 before having children).  It was 1154 when Stephen died & Henry II was crowned, at the age of 21, which would make his mom 52.  Kind of cool, it says that even after she gave up hope of being crowned and her son was king, her name always preceded his in official announcements & such, a nice gesture on his part.  

Her epitaph reads "Great by Birth, Greater by Marriage, Greatest in her Offspring: Here lies Matilda, the daughter, wife, and mother of Henry."


11/21/2009 3:24 PM


terrilee
Re :   Royal Post Mortems

From what I've read, pneumonia sounds about right for E4.  Caught a chill, developed into a upper respiratory infection, and what with no antibiotics available - that can turn into a nasty thing indeed.  I have asthma & have had 'walking pneumonia' myself - it's miserable.  The infection can cause a high fever, immense difficulty breathing and you simply wear yourself out trying to catch your breath.  Nasty croupy coughing does nothing but further weaken you.  I have been hospitalized with it, when I've ignored the symptoms too long, so I understand how someone could die of it.  And what with his lifestyle, it's not like he had the stamina to throw something like that off.  Had he caught such a thing when he was younger, and on the battlefield fairly often, he probably could have survived.  But the years of peace allowed him to carouse to his delight, and his constitution was not able to deal with the infection.


11/21/2009 3:12 PM


Greensleev
Topic :   Royal Post Mortems

Had a squizz at FAs fiddling list over in Information Station & eyeballing the causes of death she's managed to unearth.  Dropsy methinks is medieval code for congestive heart failure, as one of the prime symptoms of that is getting the swells.  Pitting edema & what-ho, or even pulmonary edema, signify such.  Consump is TB or possibly cystic fibrosis in the case of the younger lads.  Now they're saying Richmond didn't have it & died all sudden-like.  I know a tertian fever is sposed to be malaria-like, but I've never heard of this quartan fever thing Eleanor of Castile had.  Just fever could be anything, tis true, like a simple case of the flu or sumfin.  At least a surfeit of lampreys is a novel way to go LOL  Dysentery not so fun.  That got the Young King as well.  Add in other royal rellies!  Still like to know if Henry IV was really falling apart.  Lots of childbirth demises.  Why you got pneumonia for Edward IV BTW?


11/20/2009 2:01 PM


Greensleev
Re :   A Plantagenety November

I thunk there were 3 of em left out of what, 21?  {pokes Mark awake}


11/20/2009 1:53 PM


Greensleev
Re :   Death Stalks the Queen

That's kind of a creepy lil pic LOL  Elizabeth looks all disgusted with her good self, like she's thinking, jeez, I'm sick of breathing.  She wouldn't go to bed for like days acuz she just knew she'd demise if she did so & when she finally fell down & couldn't get up she was hauled into it all delerious-like.  So you like the lead-poisoning theory for what ailed her?


11/20/2009 1:51 PM


Greensleev
Re :   Queen Matilda

Lots of those peeps died in their 30s & 40s, what we would consider young, but that was the life expectancy rate back then, so would that be considered "old age"?  Matilda was 29 when she married 15-yr-old Geoffrey of Anjou & methinks since she was not amused with it & went home to Daddy at least once or twice that I recollect, she was prolly in her early to mid-30s when she commenced breeding her 3 lil heirs.  So mayhap early 50s when Henry became king?


11/20/2009 1:47 PM


Greensleev
Re :   Find A Grave Additions

But what could cause that in a 3-yr-old, I wonder?  Muscular dystrophy?  Cancer?  What?


11/20/2009 1:44 PM


firstmorni
Re :   Find A Grave Additions

atrophy is wasting of ones muscles ....they shrink in size.
firstmorningsun


11/20/2009 10:28 AM


terrilee
Re :   Who Killed the Princes in the Tower?

Just a few thoughts as I read your 'find-a-grave' listings on the POT's sisters - they always make me sad - those younger York girls.  Catherine & Bridget were 4 & 3 when E4 died, they prolly didn't even remember him or what it was like to be England's princesses.  They were just pieces on a chessboard, to their father, mother & later brother-in-law.

Richard Duke of York, as well as his son Edmund Earl of Rutland was brought with honors to Fotheringhay by his son Edward IV.  (Wiki says he was buried in Fotheringhay Church {not castle} in 1476) I find it hard to believe that E4 would not have had his father's and brother's heads removed from Mickelgate Bar and buried alongside the bodies.  BTW, Proud Cis was buried opposite her husband in Fotheringhay Church some 35 years later.


11/19/2009 8:29 PM


terrilee
Re :   Queen Matilda

As I recall, Matilda died of old age, didn't she?  I know she outlived her hubby & lived to see her son Henry crowned as King after Stephen bought the farm.  Didn't she rule some of the French lands for her son after he was crowned?


11/19/2009 8:12 PM


Forever_Am
Topic :   Royal Coroner

I'm taking Greens' suggestion & am working on it in here....shhhh ROFL

CAUSES OF DEATH KINGS & QUEENS OF ENGLAND

William the Conqueror - injured by his own saddle pommel poking his fat stomach when he fell off his horse at the siege of Mantes; then exploded ROFL
Matilda of Flanders - natural causes?

William II "Rufus" - killed by arrow while hunting in the New Forest

Henry I - surfeit of lampreys; so food poisoning?
Matilda (Edith) of Scotland - natural causes?
Adelicia of Louvain - natural causes?

Stephen - natural causes?
Matilda of Boulogne - fever; could be anything

Matilda - natural causes?
Geoffrey of Anjou - fever; could be anything

Henry II - unnatural causes ROFL considering the eaglets' revolt
Eleanor of Aquitaine - really ancient

Richard I "Lionheart" - injury suffered during siege of Chalus
Berengaria of Navarre - natural causes?

John - dysentery
Isabella d'Angouleme - natural causes?

Henry III - natural causes?
Eleanor of Provence - natural causes?

Edward I - natural causes?
Eleanor of Castile - quartan fever
Marguerite of France - natural causes?

Edward II - murdered
Isabella of France - natural causes?

Edward III - stroke
Philippa of Hainault - dropsy

Richard II - murdered
Anne of Bohemia - plague
Isabella of Valois - childbirth

Henry IV - reputed to have leprosy & in ill health several years before demise
Mary de Bohun - childbirth
Joanna of Navarre - natural causes?

Henry V - dysentery
Catherine of Valois - childbirth
Owen Tudor - executed

Henry VI - murdered
Margaret of Anjou - natural causes?

Edward IV - pneumonia?
Elizabeth Woodville - natural causes?

Edward V - PITT, who knows?

Richard III - battle
Anne Neville - consumption

Henry VII - consumption
Elizabeth of York - childbirth

Henry VIII - possibly complications of diabetes?
Catherine of Aragon - cancer
Anne Boleyn - executed
Jane Seymour - childbirth
Anne of Cleves - natural causes?
Catherine Howard -executed
Catherine Parr - childbirth

Edward VI - consumption or possibly arsenic poisoning?

Jane Grey - executed
Guildford Dudley - executed

Mary I - dropsy; probably ovarian cancer?
Philip II, King of Spain - gout, dropsy, fever

Elizabeth I - not known; possible lead poisoning?

Mary Queen of Scots - executed

James I - stroke followed by a "tertian ague"
Anne of Denmark - dropsy

Charles I - executed
Henrietta Maria of France - natural causes?

Charles II - kidney disease?
Catherine of Braganza - natural causes?

James II - stroke
Anne Hyde - cancer
Mary of Modena - cancer

William III - fell off his horse, broke his collarbone, got pneumonia
Mary II - smallpox

Anne - gout leading to a streptoccal bacterial infection
George of Denmark - natural causes?


11/19/2009 2:08 PM


Forever_Am
Topic :   Find A Grave Additions

I added in those sundry Plantagenets, & also Owen Tudor, plus the 3 children of Henry VII & Elizabeth of York who died young, Elizabeth, Edmund, & Catherine.  Edmund & Catherine do not have their own listing, but are crammed into the same tomb with Elizabeth at Westminster:

Princess Elizabeth died on Saturday 14 September, 1495 after suffering from atrophy at the age of three years and two months. Elizabeth was brought from Eltham in state and buried on the north side of St. Edward the Confessor's Shrine in Westminster Abbey on Friday the 27th. Princess Elizabeth was the first of four of King Henry and Queen Elizabeth's children to die prematurely and they were greatly affected. The large sum of £318 (£155,479.74 in today's money) was spent on her funeral and Henry erected a small tomb to his daughter in the Abbey made from Purbeck and black marble. On top of the monument is a finely polished slab of black Lydian, upon which were placed inscriptions to Elizabeth and her effigy of copper gilt, both of which are now lost. Later, Princess Elizabeth's younger brother Prince Edmund (who died in 1500 at the age of 15 months) and her younger sister Princess Katherine (who died in 1503 shortly after birth) were also laid by her side. 

OK now "atrophy" is a weird cause of death!  Some sort of wasting disease?  Like what?  Anyone care to speculate?


11/19/2009 1:45 PM


Forever_Am
Re :   Death Stalks the Queen

O wait, I think it just came to me....Father Time, maybe?


11/19/2009 1:11 PM


Forever_Am
Re :   A Tudory November

Yes, if not for Richard of Bordeaux, Gaunt would've been the one invested as Prince of Wales after the Black Prince's death.  Generally succession only went through the female line if there was a dearth of direct male heirs, so I highly doubt E3 would've tapped Philippa Mortimer to be queen even though Lionel was the 2nd son & Gaunt was the 3rd.  Plus I bet E3 still had Mortimer issues despite letting his granddaughter wed one.  For some reason the English were highly paranoid about the possibility of Gaunt usurping Richard's claim, when in actuality Gaunt did all he could to keep Richard's arse on the throne throughout his many screwups & keep peace in the kingdom.  If Gaunt hadn't been busily engaged in dying when Bolingbroke was banished, he may have been able to talk sense into them both.  Maybe he died thinking he had, as it's said Richard visited him at Leicester when it became apparent he was on his way out.  And actually, by primogeniture, Bolingbroke should've been Richard's heir, not the Mortimers.  Richard wasn't all that old & Isabella was going to grow up & consummate the marriage; Bolingbroke obviously didn't care to wait & see if Richard could sire an heir of the body.  Gaunt would've had a cow had he lived to see his son banished for life & the huge Lancastrian ducal estates yanked from his own heirs into the royal coffers.  Richard overplayed his hand there.

This thread had become A Plantagenety November, too ROFL  And now it's about to be a Stuarty one as Charles Is BD is today  & I bet MQOS was tickled pink over Knox's demise.  I mean, the Scots lords were no saints, but Knox was such a troublemaker & he instigated them at times.

Back to Tudory....interesting that the 1st installment of CoAs dowry arrived on the anniversary of Warwick's execution.  It's said Isabella, following the Perkin Warbeck nonsense, told Henry VII to get rid of all those pesky Yorkist claimants before she'd consider sending her daughter to marry his son.


11/19/2009 12:54 PM


Forever_Am
Re :   Who Killed the Princes in the Tower?

It's likely because they're the queen's rellies 11dy6x removed or something.  It's been 500 years, c'mon, & it's not like they were actual ancestors.  I'm sure my 500-year-old rellies somewhere in Europe probably have a housing complex atop them or something by now ROFL  And you're right, if she's so concerned about them then why don't they give Mary a better resting place than a slab surrounded by linoleum?

OK I'm looking at Find a Grave.  Bridget's plot at Dartford Priory no longer exists & it's Henry VIIIs fault.  He built a manor on it after the Dissolution & it became part of Anne of Cleves' settlement.  You think he'd have the class to move his own aunt!

Catherine, Countess of Devon's grave at St Peter's Churchyard in Tiverton, Devon stills exists.  She was Courtenay's grandmother.  As her hubby died in 1511 & she took a vow of chastity.  Must've been a splendid marriage ROFL

Cicely is noted as Cecelia at Find A Grave (splains why I couldn't find her before) & though Quarr Abbey on the Isle of Wight is in ruins, it doesn't say the grave has vaporized like it did with Bridget's.

Anne was a tough nut to crack as for some odd reason she's listed under Howard, having been married to our Tudor Surrey/Norfolk's father.  She's in St Mary's, Lambeth, London.

I did find Mary & little George.  They're in St George's Chapel, Windsor, with their parents.

Just as a side note....Richard of York (sans head, I assume) was buried at Fotheringhay, which is also in ruins.  Clarence & Isabel Neville are at Tewkesbury Abbey.  Their effigy thing has crumbled to dust & so have they, it says they're in a glass box now on the wall of the vault.  I'm going to bookmark this Plantagenet search page & add some more into the Find a Royal Grave thread, as it also came up with a few other Plantagenets of earlier times.


11/19/2009 12:22 PM


Forever_Am
Re :   A Plantagenety November

Ironic that Mortimer got his in the same week, 4 yrs later, hmmm?  E3 must've really despised him to show his contempt by insisting on a commoner's death for a noble.  And how would you like to be him having this conversation with Mummy about her BF?  ROFL

I just saw something recently that said ever since Richard II was invested as Prince of Wales, it's been done.  Do you think E3 was listening to how much the English folk seemed to despise Gaunt when he planned this event?

Does anyone know how long it took all those Eleanor Crosses to go up?  There's only the one in Charing Cross left now, right?


11/19/2009 12:16 PM

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